Life can be a Pain

[Owlunar2]

Thanks @tyme - I agree.

My parents were not there for me - my Dad got over it - we were on good terms at the end of his life - which was a great comfort for me - it still is.

My mother never did - and that was her choice - it's a pity that.

But - most importantly - I have learned though all of that - I am definitely there for my daughter - she has a few things to learn though.

It's marvelous what I have learned through my long life - this truth - people do not learn something if they are not listening - we can hope something gets though the silence.

And I have learned that silence might be golden - but the truth is beyond value I am okay though.

I am glad your family was there for you - that is fantastic to hear

Owlunar 

[Meowmy]

@Owlunar2 hey Owlunar. Hope in time things will get better for you. Although sometimes the one to initiate contact will need strength and courage. May be in a week or two can make a text.

[Appleblossom]

Dear @Owlunar2 I noticed a 2 in your name!

It can be very challenging finding and maintaining authenticity in our relationships.  The mother daughter relationship is one of the most tested and I know your daughter has her own issues.  When is it right to say how we feel and respect the power imbalances that are usually a part of parental relationships. I believe we have the right as parents to be full humans, and not just relate strictly from the role. If we forgive and forgive and never speak from our hurt, the thread between people can be stretched so that can feel we do a disservice to ourselves. Respecting the things we value, being whole with all our vulnerabilities, and still feel connected with loved ones...what a challenge is mothering.

I actually watched a super nanny vid last night, not my normal fair, but it helped me see perspective and also humour.

Great to "see" you

Apple

[Owlunar2]

@Appleblossom 

Thanks Apple  - yes - I truly believe that the bonds can easily be stretched too far if we are  not honest about what hurts.

I know there are limits  - strange though - if we mention our hurt somehow it can be taken as the criticism we have tried so hard to avoid.

Mother and daughter relationships are complex - i do know my daughter better than she realises  - oh yes!

It's really great to have your input 

Owlunar 

[Owlunar2]

Thanks @Meowmy 

Yes - time  - and circumstances 

It's my son-in-law's birthday toward the end of the month - as usual I will send his birthday card with a quick pick things - I admire this man - he is a fine person 

Then there is Christmas  - I can send more stuff  by mail - I am  not holding a grudge  - it's up to her.

So time and patience  - good things

Owlunar 

[Oaktree]

Hi @Owlunar2 

I am sorry to hear that things are not going well with your daughter and yourself. I hope that things will improve quickly. Hopefully she will not hold a grudge. You are right to want to be treated with respect and you have a right to live the way you wish to. 

Much love,

Meggle

[Appleblossom]

Sounds like a plan. @Owlunar2 Sometimes we do have to manage things, even though many nuanced feelings may be held in check. Its good you respect your daughter's partner.  Families end up having so many attachments that even tho I had studied it at uni level, I have found attachment theory limited, and only recently seeing some podcasts that start to develop the field. I liked Saussure, anthropologist, as he looked at culture and kin.  A problem with psychology is there are so many diverse theories and approaches.... objectivity in human realities is an impossiblity...

By the end of my mother's life I limited things, as a family therapist had warned me I should, 20 years earlier, way back before my brother finally completed his suicide.  He warned me about her as I was trying to get her involved in some therapy or broader way of viewing the world than her limited vision of whatever was in religion that suited herself.  I understood her wound or 'narcissistic' injury, moved away at 16 for self preservation, but forgave it too often. I did not realise how deep was her delusional defences that she would not realise the real damage she was doing manipulating my daughter.  I always normalised the Schizophrenia in my family.  I just accepted them as normal, but now as I age and have more time to look at how others negotiate the world, I see how wrong some things were.  In a way I have to accept my own delusional aspects and joke about it as being in 'fairy land' or 'wearing rose coloured glasses'.  These are the areas I need to work on socially.  Not being such a 'fragile flower', but allowing both my sensitivity and strength to prevail.  Its tricky ... with only cynicism or defences .. there is no hope or trust or space for real good will to arise ...

Gently Bently

Apple

[Owlunar2]

@Appleblossom 

Apple - you are a wise woman.

Forgiveness is such an abstract thing - can we forgive too often? Perhaps we can - I look at it differently which does not mean it's the only way to see it.

I think we forgive for ourselves - I have found forgiving someone releases me - but forget - no! - never! It is in our best interests to protect ourselves from vexatious spirits. They are out there - all the time.

I was able to forgive my mother - and through research learn her reasons - but forget - no - and I have never given her excuses for her behaviour. In this way I have learned to understand myself better too.  As have you - through a different path - one less taken perhaps.

We can only go on from one day to the next. We can watch and learn though - nature - signs - deep thinking - and watchfulness. I had a sign before I rang my daughter back earlier in the week - she rang when I was busy so I waited until I felt okay. But I had had a sign.

I have lived here for nearly 20 years and in all this time I have searched for a bag of rune stones given to me by a dear friend - long gone - these were always valuable to me - I still had the book explaining the stones - but - wow - whatever happened to something so precious to me?

I found them the day before my rang me - they were at the back of a drawer I decided to clear out - and I felt a huge surge of wonder and relief. When I had time to rest my mind I read a simple spread and the counsel was to speak out and then wait - allow time to pass - and this I am doing.

I know my daughter well enough to know she will not listen to explanations - it can be so frustrating - to me it seems she does not live very deeply - her life is based on surface issues - which is perfectly okay - I do not judge her for this - I think I needed - still need - her to recognize that I have had a very tough couple of years and I have worn thin. She just needs to say something like "I understand you have had a rough time lately - that I have said something to upset you - and I am sorry" - that might take a long time coming - so yes - I do have a plan.

Your story is - a story of psychological pain and this I understand. I don't know if my mother was a narcissist or not. She was pretty cruel - and what your brother said about not getting your mother involved in therapy - that she already had developed her own ideas - corrupt it seems. He was right - obviously - and what you did or tried to do was not wrong - it was a trial - and you have learned. Regardless of what we do in life - we all learn something - even if that was not what was being taught.

And I am so sorry that your brother completed suicide. I have an idea but I cannot know how you feel - that is really tough shit.

If you forgave your mother too often it allowed her to hurt you more often - which is not good - it is a powerful sign of your good intentions though. I still care - I understand more now.

That was an excellent post.

Owlunar

[Owlunar2]

Thanks @Oaktree 

This thing with my daughter has been an issue for a couple of years now - I understand her reasons - I don't think she holds grudges - more that she can't always understand someone else's anguish - and she can be wonderfully thoughtless.

I know you have had a rough time - I was not triggered about what you wrote in an earlier post - rather my approaching and actual dental surgery triggered my PTSD - I did get excellent treatment in hospital though - no waiting before getting into the theatre and I got the IV premed I asked for - and really needed.

I have to waiting until the dental implants have settled into the bone - I still have a couple of months to go before I see the surgeon again - and get the clip-on lower denture. It seems like a long time to be without bottom teeth - it is actually - but time does pass. My jaw is nearly healed and I am really glad I had the GA.

It is wonderful to be back - and I did need the support I get - I am a pretty tough cookie but there are times life can be tougher - and I get tougher to get through it. It's not easy though

All the best

Mumma Bar

Owlunar

[Appleblossom]

Thank you @Owlunar2 You have put 2 and 2 together about my past in a meaningful response, which has been very rare for me. (even from highly trained and paid professionals.)

I understand ... the psychological benefit of forgiveness ... your wrote " It is in our best interests to protect ourselves from vexatious spirits. "  My whole being leaned that way. Even my ward file says I loved my parents. In many ways, my 2 sibs and I who had been abandoned and returned to mother had much in common though we spent 5-7 years apart .  We did a lot of forgetting as we were not allowed to speak of or process our experiences ... so I had to research to put vague feelings and memories in perspective and even be able to develop a narrative.  I was only 6.  My brother was 4 and sister was 2, so their cognitive ability to remember and process was even less than mine. Their minds even more under strain from integrating all of it.